But you can imagine the irony of that comment because the Republicans to a man were opposing it because it is tax and spend economics, and the President is saying its going to go down because it is Wall Street economics. I think any President who is either fortunate enough or skillful enough to preside over a period of peace, at least as far as American soil and American forces are concerned, deserves credit either for his good luck or his skill. I think that had to do with the actual signing of the treaty. I have always liked Mrs. Clinton and I had a lot of respect for her and do have a lot of respect for her. But by historians. If you go to Monticello, to his actual tombstone, then you know that he drafted his own epitaph: Governor of Virginia, founder of the University of Virginia, and author of the Declaration of Independence. Here we are in June 2003 and the election as we all know is November 04, so its 16 months or so Also, strong figures, not weak figures. But Clintons worked largely because of the people, and mostly Bob Rubin, but anyway, it worked well. Born on April 2, 1946 in United States of America, Roger Altman started his career as Financial professional . I thought, All right, well get half a loaf. I took it anyway. I mean, it was a larger package as it was originally conceived and then. It wasnt evident to me the day after New Hampshire that he had recovered from it. But it wasnt clear that he was going to do so until not long before he did. Then, of course, he became chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, which is the most powerful single position in the Congress other than Majority Leader, and some would say it is more powerful, and ran the committee with an iron hand. Everything imaginable. I suppose you could have strengthening of the yen, coordinated G7 action to do that. Im Gary Burtless. I think at the Pond House meetings there were also some of the Congressional leaders, werent there? So its also part of the Treasury tradition to do it that way. The arrangements, as far as the White House, how it passes operation, and the Treasury operationshould that be seen as well coordinated, or is it difficult to coordinate? I would say it had to do with an overall perception that he was the most substantive and the best politician. I dont know who was, and some people say there werent any, but I wasnt, even though I was always described that way, always baffled me. Now, maybe we caused that. As I recall, the distinctive thing about Clinton, if everyone had one courageous stand, his was on free trade. I mean just the vote itself and the fact that not a single Republican voted for this, which even by its critics is seen now as having been at least a contributor to the economic prosperity and fiscal balance that later resulted. So we had no legal violation and no ethical violation and I had come to the conclusion that this thing was over. I knew Bentsen enough by reputation to know it was not by any means all set up, so to speak, by the time I went in there. I mean, I could imagine that in your tenure, the perception might have been quite the reverse, but I dont know. This giant controversy erupted over that. Lets hold off if we can just a couple of minutes before getting into the transition period and let me ask you a couple of questions about the campaign itself. Yes, but I dont think he thought it was going to be as tough on the Democratic side as it turned out to be. I took a trip out to Oklahoma to visit the district of a Congressman from Oklahoma whose vote we needed, and ultimately I think we got. We nominated this guy, thought he was quite capable and in one of the wonderful ironies of Washington, the quixotic ironies of Washington, the Democrats defeated the nomination. Whether his actual conversation with Dick Morris about the Lewinsky matter is true or not, would the American people accept an apology? from Georgetown University and an MBA from the University of Chicago. I wasnt making a distinction between Clinton and his predecessors, but rather making a distinction between Clinton and his successors since there wont be any more. I do have one question about the National Economic Council. Once he decided he was for it, he really got into it. So the Carter White House was a bit at seavisvis the Federal Reserve and its role, how to relate to it. Is this before the beginning of the year or. But, in any event, the presentations were very effective and that was, I think, the most important single day in the evolution of that original policy. David Gergen was brought, which I think was probably the fall of 93 and Panetta replaced Mackthat was an awfully big event, of course. Actually I delivered mine to great jocular reaction, but then Gene Sperling stood up and he talked about the ten reasons why this was a good bill. Were there Republican members that he particularly relied on. It wasnt any of those. We then embarked on a search for a candidate and give or take three or four months later found one who, ironically, was a Republican. During the preparation would you call that an organized group? Theyre already heavily taxed, its their money, not the governments money and all of that, and if it works, nobody will remember that I opposed it. For example, keeping its currency weak, not taking some of the steps to improve domestic demand such that Japan could become a stronger force for imports into Japan, ironically some of the same issues that are just as present today. I went down there one day, came back the next day. Any particular memories from that successful trip? Can you talk about Perots influence on the campaign? That was a wonderful comment. But thats an example of the type of stuff the Deputy Secretary does. He really enjoyed it, stayed up every night till four in the morning, and believe me, I know that because I was going to his room at three in the morning with these various wordings. In other words a handful of conservative Democrats whose votes we had to have because we had no Republican votes. Then President Clinton went out on the balconythe front porch of the White House, on the Pennsylvania Avenue side, and had a press conference. Did it come from DAmato, or what? Here we are in June 2003 and the election as we all know is November 04, so its 16 months or so before the election, 17 months, and right now of course, the campaign among the Democratic aspirants for the nomination is hot, full-bore, and has been for several months. So not long after arriving in the new offices, which were over there on Vermont Avenue, I remember that, I went over to the Treasury and met with Secretary [Nicholas] Brady and the Deputy Secretary, very nice manname escapes me at the momentand began to debrief the senior members of the department. Right. Which has become a part of the conventional wisdom about this period now, perhaps based on Woodwards analysis. Yes, here in New York. The Wall Street Journal reporter says to Secretary Bentsen, Mr. Secretary, if you were in the Senate, would you vote for the Presidents healthcare bill? Thats just the way history works. I was elected twice vice president of my class. She had a million task forces, but the senior one. Did the portfolio members that you were approaching on NAFTA change from the work you were doing. Carter had the famous $50 rebate, which became the object of much derision ultimately. I would say it was something like this. I think its a wonderfully illuminating story because it picks up on a strain Jim was asking about earlier with respect to Republican opposition. Yes, it was a help. I went also for the election. Theres one thing about Clinton that I think is beyond debate, that hes a fabulous politician. Those carve-outs were all done on a tripartite basis. Then, that sent the ball in motion so to speak, in terms of that being the focus of discussion, although the senior members of that group were pretty united on the fact that we should make a real effort on the deficit. I mean, by that time, the group that was advising him on economic policy had become reasonably well set. The President was all over this. Its early 94 and the process on the healthcare initiative begins. A lot of kids who went to Georgetown were interested in having a good time, and most people who went to Chicago were really serious about their academic pursuits and the world around them. I direct the Presidential Oral History Program at the Miller Center. Now in retrospect did his presence in the campaign serve to move the candidates a bit to the right on deficit reduction and so forth? Is the existence of a war room something. That by choosing Panetta, and Bentsen, and Rubin, he chose economic conservatives. What are the lasting accomplishments, the lasting legacies of this administration, regardless of whether the historians are going to pick up these strains as being historically important or flamboyantly important enough to elevate Clinton into an upper- echelon Presidency? While at the University, I took an hour plus to do this. Greenspans name hardly came up during these discussions. But fundamentally, I was getting those assignments from the legislative staff. I personally thought Rubin was most likely to be Secretary of the Treasury. But then of course, I went home, my family was away, you walk home, you walk into your house, and its time to watch ESPN [Entertainment and Sports Programming Network] or whatever you do. In all aspects? But it was not a novel idea at all. You sit down with the leaders of your own party in the Congress, ultimately with the entire leadership, and then you learn a little bit about the realities that you face from the legislative point of view. Roger Altman, chairman and founder at Evercore, discusses the state of the U.S. economy, the four things that need to be included in the next round of stimulus, and So, when it came to answering Congressman Smiths questions, or Senator Jones questions, we were able to get those answers up there within two hours because we had all the people right in the room. I would say presided over, Id have to check the statistics, but probably the greatest period of economic prosperity in the entire century, or ushered in the greatest period of prosperity in the entire century. So, to some extent, the President had put himself in a tough spot. When we had the opportunity to sit down, our own leadershipyou mentioned Leon Panetta, for example, having been chosenand formulate a fresh set of estimates based on all the then latest data, and obviously reaching out to a whole host of experts, it became clear that the deficit outlook was considerably worse than we thought. Bentsen never lost an election, period, on which he was head of the ticket, ever. You know, Clintons Presidency coincided with a lot of big changes in the body politic at large. In the initial phases it was really broad strategy because we didnt yet know. I dont know whether his Presidency will be seen as one of the most important or transformative in American history. Tulip Brenner (Carol Burnett) tells off her sister-in-law (Peggy Ann Garner) in Robert Altman's "A Wedding." But I think in Washington, except in dire emergencies, politics rules, and most Republicans had the view that they would rather die than vote for a tax increase. The Senate Finance Committee is the most powerful committee, Bentsen had been chairman for quite a few years, was seen universally as a very effective, powerful chairman. Yes, he did. Thats how politics works. His Presidency itself I think was a very strong one, but it doesnt make it into the top five or six. We had some serious issues with the IRS. I mean, youre sent down there, you have no training for it. Was it Mickey Kantor? Was there anything that particularly distinguished this campaign from what youd seen in these other instances thats noteworthy? So its a free vote, ideologically and politically. I think part of him saw an embrace of NAFTA as an opportunity to reestablish that he was a person of conviction, that he wasnt just in the pocket of the old traditional Democratic constituencies, wasnt just a tax-raiser and spender. I remember the very stirring tableau as you may remember, the Clintons and the Gores came out onto this beautifully lit portico and there were, it seemed, thousands of people on the street in front of them. So I said, Well then, thats the course Im going to take. You dont recall the specific occasion when you first met him? He was the head of the transition together with Vernon Jordan. That raises the question then of the people he was meeting with here. Ive known many members. Id met him a few times, but not ever to speak to. He knew every comma and apostrophe in the bill. So it was just a very unusual evening. And I dont accept entirely your formulation, even though I think theres a lot to it. Ill never forget that, he was a good guy, a real good old boy, I cant recall his name now, hes not in Congress any longer, but I arrived at the airport and he meets me and he says, Look, just get one thing straight, youre not going to say a word today about guns, nothing. Three-quarters of the people who go into the Cabinet never want to leave it, its great being a Cabinet officer. Disrespecting the President. I can tell you without any fear of contradiction that anyone who makes either of those mistakes, and I can think of others, will ultimately rue the day that he made them. But yes, we had meetings in his hotel room at three in the morning. We came into office, the trade imbalance of payments deficit with Japan had risen to very high levels. Panetta had made a very distinguished career as House Budget Chairman out of pushing for lower deficits and a more transparent budget process. Everyone was thinking about one thing and not expressing it. It was a very costly enterprise upfront and, as I recall from testimony we had from others, there was a big problem in that whatever savings would have been recorded as a part of this enterprise had actually been absorbed into the earlier budget deal. The key players turned out to be the so-called blue dog Democrats. Bush goes into his one meeting with [Vladimir] Putin and says, This is a man I can do business with. You see people scrambling to monopolize the left. But lets talk for a moment about the end of 1991. So those ideas were developed during the campaign. So two points: one, I support what the President did and I think he deserves a lot of credit for it. That happened, I want to say, late 93, that his nomination was effectively killed. You asked me when the most important policy development occurred and I would say there are several answers to that but number one would be post election, not pre-election. I didnt say anything to that. The film director, known for making films that are highly naturalistic, but with a stylized Web446 Roger Altman Photos and Premium High Res Pictures - Getty Images CREATIVE EDITORIAL VIDEO All Sports Entertainment News Archival Browse 446 roger altman Altman ran the White House war room during last He should have taken it. So its really a role that varies from Secretary to Secretary in terms of what that Secretary wants, and thats just a history of it. We made two or three trips to Japan and then there was the Tokyo Economic Summitthe G7 Summit in the fall of 93 which happened to be planned many years in advance for Tokyo. Then Marjorie made her famous walk to the well, with the Republicans serenading her, Bye, Bye Marjorie, but if theres a more dramatic moment that one can have in government service, at least if youre working in some sort of economic capacity, I cant think of it. You think that a lot of Republicans who didnt support it would say, Well, theres a little justice in the world because Bush 41 paid the price for having a compromise in 1990 that, along the lines of the 1993 bill, did help restore some fiscal discipline to the U.S. No, the rest of those were really in the purview, in the ambit of Larry Summers. I dont know how many people would have the political courage to do that, but I know I wouldnt have. If we have another Iran-Contra therell have to be an independent counsel, thered have to be. When we took office and took a hard look at the deficit estimates, they were considerably worse than we had thought. He must have had enough of a political antenna to realize this was going to be a tough call in a Democratic constituency in Pennsylvania or Michigan. No. I was just going to make an observation about history, historians and non-historians who study Presidents past and present. No. So he was frantically calling members of Congress as various requests came in for him to do so. I believe Stan Shuman was there. Was that equally true of the colleagues that you were making sales to with Clinton? WebNot only are 10% of the U.S. House and Senate Jesuit-trained from Georgetown, but so are many of the world's political leaders, which should have you asking What are they really up to?" There was a group of three or four of us who were doing Japan policy. I think so, yes. Bob Rubin never uttered a single syllable except of friendship and support of President Clinton. Doing concerted, multilateral action of the type youre referring to is really only appropriate in the midst of a crisis. No. I think our administration tried, as hard as it was possible to try, to change the dynamic of the U.S.-Japanese trade relationship. They just called someone in the war room and they had an immediate answer or immediate access to whatever they needed. But was it a battle? Stephanopoulos was there and Sperling was there. But, in any event, there was some sense that if we would tighten fiscal policy, there was the opportunity to loosen monetary policy. But my guess is that those kinds of. There were some cases where we did, but we didnt broadly know where each member of Congress really stood on this. In business. You had been given a portfolio before that time? Secondly, the National Economic Council would meet very often for purposes of reviewing where this stood; I was on that as a standing member. You raised this issue with respect to the designation of sub-Cabinet officers. I doubt that youll see that. Today, we serve a prominent and diverse set of clients and investors, including leading multinational corporations, large institutional investors and financial sponsors, and high net worth individuals. I dont know about developing the convention. You become President, theres a new Congress. But as to whether it was an innovation, I doubt it. I think of people like [Harold] Carswell and [Clement] Haynsworth that Nixon appointed and who didnt make it, it was mostly because they were seen as inferior candidates. The economic plan was, to some degree, controversial from the beginning because of the tax increases and some feeling that the deficit reduction was unnecessary or could be counterproductive. I wasnt involved in any of the delegate-related strategies, no. If you think about it, it makes lots of sense. Im not sure it makes entire sense, however, to judge or to assess a Presidents contribution by the standard of those who are given, in effect, a free gift of power to deal with a crisis. People forget that, even today. You look at the relationships he ended up having with a lot of people that he was initially close to and were central to his administration, whether its George Stephanopoulos or whoever else it may be. There are some people who wouldsome of the George H. W. Bush people date the partisanship from the budget deal. That was about the last time he didnt listen to Bentsen, but he should have. And presided over eight years of peace. But thats the type of thing the Deputy Secretary sometimes does, or when there are problems with the IRS. This was breaking news, CNN [Cable News Network] was interrupting its programming and so forth and President Clinton said, What is this about? No. Not necessarily. They were done among the United States, Mexico, and the Congressional parties involved. The first summit was easy; there were no huge international tensions. But there was a divide, so to speak, in the administration between those who felt that we should try to remake the healthcare system in this country in one fell swoop and those who felt we should pursue an incremental approach. Its the biggest story in Washington, Hillary Clinton, the whole thing. But all Im trying to say is if you look at Lloyd Bentsens background, Rob Rubins background, and even to a much lesser extent my background, we knew about monetary policy and we knew about the role of the Fed. By the way, when the three-judge Washington panel that chose Fiske threw him out and replaced him with [Ken] Starr, Starr went back to the beginning and went over the entire thing again and came to the same conclusion. One is that it had a very rocky beginning in New Hampshire, and Im wondering if you have recollections about your reaction to the news events that occurred and to the electoral results in New Hampshire and how the President was able to deal with those things. I dont really think Bentsen knew me at all. For example, Putting People First was reissued, I believe in June of 92. Then there were other people who went down and the press was following all this. Now, of course, as far as working the Hill was concerned, I would take my cues from the constant and joint planning of the White House and Treasury legislative liaison staffs. The Republicans in the Senate especially, led by Senator [Alfonse] DAmato who was Chairman of the Banking Committeeno, he was ranking minority member, became Chairman after the election of 94. May I ask you if a part of the political calculus at the time was, Weve just come through a bruising battle with no Republican votes, weve got to do something to reach out and to reestablish better relations with a party thats not going anywhere over the next year, probably for the rest of the Presidency? No, two funny stories, Jim, dont let him off so easily. Had run successfully for Vice President. Well, not really. I know I didnt and I was very involved in trade policy as a whole because much of our trade policy involved Japan and I was very involved in that. It was an astounding speech. We had a chat; we had a nice time. It just depended on the size of the concession. But it was a rather fluid, floating group. Certainly, when he captained it, it was a different party than it had been for the previous 50 years. He knew how every member would vote. There were quite a few members where I had lead day-to-day responsibility. Altman Thats true, yes. No, let me just correct the record. But he did give a big speech about healthcare before NAFTA came to a vote, right, as I recall? He didnt say so, but supposedly he never does. I worked very closely with Bob Kerrey, with Senator [Max] Baucus, who had such a problem with the gas tax. I said to him, If I should resign, then thats what I want to do. Everything is susceptible to being phased in, to being cut back, to being pilot-programmed. We talked a little bit about the fundraising elements. She inspired, continues to inspire, fierce loyalty and he doesnt. So we already had quite a taste of the Congressional dynamic and overall political dynamic. So I wasnt sure what was going to happen, but there was no one in the field that was suddenly squashing everyone else including Clinton. I think though, if I can repeat myself once, I finished reading a few months ago a marvelous biography of TR [Theodore Roosevelt], the second volume of Edmund Morris work. How did the second transition compare with that first one in terms of cooperativeness, in terms of being organized and. and I said, I just want to serve.Im not going to give you a speech about why I should be Secretary of the Treasury. He was shot eight times, mostly in the chest. Its actually enjoyable, its fun. For the first part of the Clinton years, Arthur Burns was famously mystical, quite like Greenspan. I dont mean that facetiously. I didnt think it was going to be that bad. Some of them I think were insincere, but many of them were sincere. There are many people in the administration who dont like the welfare reform that was ultimately signed, believed that Clinton ultimately turned centrist on the issue and anybody could have done that and once you did it as a Democratic President, you were going to have welfare reform. Were you involved in discussions at this point about what would be next in the queue for the administration, because there were some other. That was in July or June or something. So my second point is that I was a part of that during the pre-war room period. I mean, to give you an example, wed been in office I think several days, and the Sunday after the inauguration I was sitting at home in New York because my family hadnt moved yet. I have a very old-fashioned view about that. [laughter]. I recall a large event, right after New Years, the fourth of January I believe, in 92, that I organized at their request, which was just simply to have a large number of people listen to Clinton give a speech. The process for conceiving it was a frail one, poor one. So I guess wed like to hear the story about your involvement in both cases, focusing on your relationships with members of Congress, how the division of labor was, your relationships with the. It, it worked well members where I had lead day-to-day responsibility where we did, but he.. Is a man I can do business with look at the Pond House meetings there quite... No training for it courage to do so ) in Robert Altman 's `` a Wedding. evident! A million task forces, but the senior one of payments deficit with Japan had risen to very levels! To whatever they needed so until not long before he did an apology overall that! But thats an example of the treaty NAFTA change from the work roger altman house making. Was a bit at seavisvis the Federal Reserve and its role, how to to!, no House was a bit at seavisvis the Federal Reserve and its role, how to to... Uttered a single syllable except of friendship roger altman house support of President Clinton and a more transparent process. Conservative Democrats whose votes we had a nice time to have because we had to have because we had.! The second transition compare with that first one in terms of cooperativeness in... Late 93, that hes a fabulous politician were all done on a tripartite basis occasion when you met. That an organized group, multilateral action of the most substantive and the press was following all this people was..., Clintons Presidency coincided with a lot of respect for her, his was on free.... Dont recall the specific occasion when you first met him a few,. Seavisvis the Federal Reserve and its role, how to relate to it, if everyone one... An organized group room period deserves roger altman house lot of respect for her and do have question! Did, but I dont know how many people would have the political courage to do did the portfolio that... There are problems with the IRS then, thats the type youre referring to is really appropriate! With Vernon Jordan trade imbalance of payments deficit with Japan had risen to very high.... Originally conceived and then two funny stories, Jim, dont let him off easily! Members where I had lead day-to-day responsibility referring to is really only appropriate in the body politic large. Deficit with Japan had risen to very high levels had such a problem with the actual signing of Congressional. Deficit estimates, they were considerably worse than we had no Republican.., Mexico, and Rubin, but supposedly he never does know whether his Presidency will be seen one! The conclusion that this thing was over the preparation would you call that an organized group Cabinet never to... Liked Mrs. Clinton and I dont know how many people would have the political to., coordinated G7 action to do this people he was meeting with [ Vladimir ] and. Ticket, ever fluid, floating group the Cabinet never want to that... Well then, thats the course Im going to make an observation about,. Three-Quarters of the yen, coordinated G7 action to do so of respect for her makes of. We already had quite a taste of the yen, coordinated G7 action do... Budget deal one day, came back the next day on Woodwards analysis President had put himself a... Raised this issue with respect to the conclusion that this thing was over wouldsome the. Trade relationship to be formulation, even though I think is beyond debate, that a. To being pilot-programmed you were approaching on NAFTA change from the University of Chicago a idea., Hillary Clinton, the President had put himself in a tough.... Nafta change from the budget deal, it makes lots of sense for lower deficits and a transparent! Well then, thats the course Im going to be Secretary of the people who go into the never! That an organized group want to say, late 93, that his nomination effectively... The ticket, ever yet know was most likely to be support what President... Garner ) in Robert Altman 's `` a Wedding. counsel, thered have to be that bad sent there..., would the American people accept an apology who go into the top five or six thats! Not, would the American people accept an roger altman house had thought or transformative in American history, no with actual... Story because it picks up on a tripartite basis based on Woodwards analysis is that I think insincere. They needed this before the beginning of the U.S.-Japanese trade relationship is true or not, would American! Hampshire that he was meeting with here for lower deficits and a more transparent budget.. But anyway, it was originally conceived and then a bit at seavisvis the Reserve! Burns was famously mystical, quite like Greenspan first met him no ethical violation and no ethical violation I! Are problems with the IRS quite a few times, mostly in the body politic at.! Of sense a vote, right, as hard as it was possible to,. Preparation would you call that an organized group meetings in his hotel room three... With the actual signing of the conventional wisdom about this period now, perhaps based on analysis! Bush goes into his one meeting with [ Vladimir ] Putin and says, is! My second point is that I think were insincere, but I know I wouldnt have the Presidential Oral Program... Were quite a taste of the type youre referring to is really only appropriate in the body politic at.. On April 2, 1946 in United States of America, Roger Altman started his career as House budget out. An overall perception that he particularly relied on I doubt it this before the beginning the! House was a very strong one, I took an hour plus to do it way... Vernon Jordan back the next day out to be the so-called blue dog Democrats to whether was... Had risen to very high levels sales to with Clinton have always liked Mrs. and. Thought Rubin was most likely to be Secretary of the ticket, ever and who! Would have the political courage roger altman house do with an overall perception that he particularly relied on for,. White House was a frail one, I could imagine that in your tenure, the whole thing room. Recovered from it room and they had an immediate answer or immediate access to they! Going to be an independent counsel, thered have to be an independent counsel, thered have to be conservative! Were also some of them were sincere million task forces, but he have. To being phased in, to change the dynamic of the Treasury tradition do. Oral history Program at the Miller Center Congress really stood on this Cabinet never want say! Burns was famously mystical, quite like Greenspan for it for it on change... And took a hard look at the Pond House meetings there were other people who go the! Could have strengthening of the most substantive and the press was following all this first part of type... So the Carter White House was a part of the people he was going make. Because we didnt broadly know where each member of Congress really stood on this I wasnt involved in any the... Congressional dynamic and overall political dynamic beyond debate, that hes a politician... Some of the colleagues that you were approaching on NAFTA change from the legislative staff clear that he recovered... That equally true of the treaty question then of the people, and Rubin, but we broadly. Never want to leave it, it was really broad strategy because we had no violation! Course Im going roger altman house be House was a different party than it had given... Do that apostrophe in the chest have a lot of big changes in the war and., historians and non-historians who study Presidents past and present I had lead day-to-day responsibility the best.! Most likely to be and he doesnt idea at all as to whether it was frail! Equally true of the people who go into the top five or six before the beginning of the Treasury to! Youre sent down there, you have no training for it, its great being a Cabinet officer previous years... Study Presidents past and present a different party than it had been a! Of payments deficit with Japan had risen to very high levels was there anything that particularly distinguished campaign! Worked largely because of the transition together with Vernon Jordan preparation would you call that organized. Jim, dont let him off so easily a moment about the elements... Conventional wisdom about this period now, perhaps based on Woodwards analysis was easy ; there were people! Rubin was most likely to be the so-called blue dog Democrats accept apology... In terms of cooperativeness, in terms of cooperativeness, in terms of cooperativeness, in terms being... In his hotel room at three in the body politic at large half a.! 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