And it is just perfect here We just bought a condo that was built in 1984. it has ceiling radiant heat and a popcorn finish. Thus, it is possible to maintain the air temperature by 5C lower compared to classical methods at the same comfort level (Dudkiewicz and Jezowiecki, 2009). Click here to Find a Contractor in your area. The technology has been around for yearscenturies, in factbut only more recently has it become a viable whole-home solution. Radiant heat in 1950s home - unable to get answer from HVAC people Heating Help: The Wall Home Radiant Heating Welcome! fire-rated gypsum wallboard. At the same time I'll speak up if I think someone is missing something in their analysis. and come in direct contact with combustible materials. This is borne out by many independent tests as well as direct feedback from owners of electric radiant systems. Typically radiant ceilings in cooling absorb heat for 60-70% by radiation and the remaining (30-40%) by natural convection. JavaScript is disabled. Radiant Ceiling Heat (Ceil Heat) Thermostats. The thermostats on radiant ceiling heaters operate differently than with central heating systems. It uses a Switch Action Open thermostat. 2. Below are some of the benefits you can enjoy: I am currently having my kitchen renovated in my 1965 home. Reversing the wires doesn't do anything. Benjamin Franklin's "Franklin stove" was a cast-iron insert designed to keep more heat inside the room. Web radiant ceiling heat was originally designed to reduce the inconsistent heat problem by spreading the heating out over the entire room. The home isn't "super insulated" - R50 ceiling, R21 walls and no insulation under the slab (except for one room, the entire house is on the one level. Steve, I have replaced the original thermostat twice, and each time, it seems like the thermostat is not functioning properly, that is, the heating element gets "stuck," and doesn't turn off, even though it is much warmer in the room than the thermostat is set at. . According to the Department of Energy, "Radiant heating has a number of advantages. So if youre sleeping in a second-floor bedroom, you no longer need to cover the cost necessary to keep the unoccupied first-floor at 70 degrees. ( price needs to be seriously lower than radiant electricity to be able to consider complexity and loss of comfort). Steve Kilbride, what do you pay for a KWH along with location and heating degree days? Obviously if you're paying an abnormally high cost for electricity vs a very cheap alternative the economics change but I haven't run into that yet except in the most extreme cases. how do I know for sure I have a reading on a ceiling joist and wont be putting a heavy ceiling screw in the heating system?? We replaced it with hardibacker but after priming and painting still doesn't look good any suggestions how to refinish? temperatures. I am sorry this feels condescending to you, but the way you put down anyone who tries to explain radiant heat to you comes off as condescending and uninformed. We have electric radiant heat in our ceilings in a ranch house built in the late 1960s by my uncle. my location makes a difference, because 1 electricity is ok priced here and 2, i do not have access to any other fuel sources :( Steve, Interesting info. We generally only use the electric heat in the bathroom and when we go away. "Your comments regularly confuse the concept of energy savings with the concept of dollar savings.". My insurance company wants to know who the manufacturer was, how can I find out, and who can I get to inspect it for safety???? Have this is my 1969 home and would like to replace the textured ceilings. If the savings came (at least in part) from temperature setback and lower air temperatures, I'm unconvinced. Radiant ceiling heat in my 1964 build. Example: Take two houses in the winter both heated to 68 degrees. It is one of the most efficient ways to heat your home and could possibly save you as much as twenty percent on your energy costs. one room is no longer working however. I checked with the electrician that installed my ceiling heat He asked me some questions regarding if there had been any leaks, cracks in ceiling, or if I planned to use it for main heat source. Between radiant and forced air heating and cooling, there are a world . I believe the floor and ceiling heat is Perfectly warm and their deicing is Perfectly clear. There are 2 companies in my area that specialize in repairing that stuff. 1- i agree that hydronic is the best of both world, except in its isntallation complexity and potential problems/maintenance that is why i personally chosed electrical, but again Apr 5, 2017. I need to put some hooks in the joist. The energy savings demonstrated by the Enerjoy radiant heating system were the combined result of reduced parasitic losses, room zoning, quick recovery from setback, and heating for comfort at a lower air temperature.". This article has been brought to you by Warmboard. Obviously its electrical resistance heat, and theres an attic above so theres doubtless some loss into the attic, but these definitely make you feel warm, because your head is so close to the heat source. When the delivery systems are similar a BTU is a BTU. I checked out a building yesterday that had heating mats like this one installed in four areas. Indem Sie auf Annehmen klicken, stimmen Sie dem zu. And don't confuse radiant versus forced air heat with electric versus gas fuel supply. posted Sunday Jan 17, 2016:Well, nice to find this little group/conversation. We like it very much. My daughter (33) was house-sitting and they were away. In one of our more recent design/build radiant systems we radiated the slab in the basement and the ceiling for the main floor at the same design water temperature - 110F ,which of course modulates with outdoor air temperatures having an average design water temperature made for heat pump or condensing boiler. You can get hot water panels. Much of it is courtesy of John Siegenthaler who to my knowledge is THE most preeminent hydronic-heating scholar in the US. I have the same issue and I dont know what it is but my electric bills are through the roof. I said I'd have a Hi All, Around the same time, on the other side of the globe, the Korean ondol system heated homes by means of cooking fires that transmitted heat from the kitchen to a series of strategically positioned stones. https://www.pmmag.com/articles/101670-john-siegenthaler-radiant-panel-systems It's actually kind of cool when you start thinking about heating systems and human comfort in this way. Martin, my cautious opinion is that given a house heated to 68 with forced air and a house heated to 68 with radiant of any sort the radiant will be more comfortable, because there's no moving air. Your comments regularly confuse the concept of energy savings with the concept of dollar savings. Billy, See: In an era when energy costs were not so prohibitively high, it might have been fine to install an all-or-nothing system, one that offered no compromise between the off setting and full-throttle operation. 2- what are you talking about there ?? Almost Maintenance Free The cable part of this heating system has no moving parts to wear out. Be cautious around the Thermalux ceiling heat system. (I don't know what they were thinking!) Seeing the limitations of concrete, manufacturers like Warmboard moved on to sheathing under-floor panels in highly conductive aluminum. . They are from the Rayboard Company in Bellaire, OH. That is why radiant heat is far more comfortable to us because the radiant heat warms the objects in the room, making us perceive the room as warm. Anyway, it cannot hurt you to consult with knowledgable radiant experts before you dole out advice. The main hall, where the seating areas are, is heated via forced air. Idiots like this harm people all the time!! I first noticed them in a hotel in Asia when I was wondering "where is that warmth coming from?!". So depending on where youre standing or sitting, you can feel either too warm or not nearly warm enough. Great info here. I found an inexpensive replacement "RobertShaw" model at Grainger supply for less than $20. Become a GBA Prime member and get full access to GBA articles, enyclopedia, videos, CAD library, and more. air to air heat pumps and waste oil systems in all of N.America there is little I can learn from the narrow of mind and obviously little I can impart. They are installed in ceilings the same as gypsum wallboard, with simple wiring connections. I have seen a project with radiant heating and cooling, but it requires some fairly sophiticated controls to pull it off. Morgan, In order to specify the right type of fire rated glass, it is important to look beyond the fire endurance rating (20 . You need to know how many "pulls" and "throws" and if it is "switch on" or "switch off." Is the heat grid contained in the actual ceiling panels? It does, but it is not a factor this type of heating. $500 for winter heat is great. Wow, so glad to finally find this informative info. It's the kind with wires spaced throughout the ceiling. Warmboard, a leading radiant manufacturer, designates a separate thermostat for separate zones, enabling customers to minimize household energy usage. Superinsulated too? 4.5 4.5 out of 5 stars (699) $879.00 $ 879. If one's electricity rate is unusually low -- as yours is, at 4 cents a kWh -- there is little incentive to find an efficient way to use electricity. It is a film type heat and my installers said it was easy to do. Thermostat Replacement Q Changing outside appearance of thermostat not a problem. Ill post when i talk with electrician. Whats more: In a family with members who prefer different temperatures, zoning makes it so that everyone can get through the winter comfortably. Below is the link to the guidelines. Was this under ceiling heating an infra red radiant panel? Radiant heat and convection heating are different approaches to space heating and they do not deliver the equivalent results. * * * Its estimated that Warmboard can hit the target temperature with water thats 30 degrees cooler than a competing system would require to achieve comparable results. #9. It may not display this or other websites correctly. Finding a few cracked ceilings and staining near the walls as expected. 2023 The Taunton Press, Inc. All rights reserved. I would get another opinion from a licensed electrician. When environmental concerns came to the. I do not currently use resistance electric heat rather a hydronic radiant floor heating systems, which is consumes the most economical fuel source available at this location, at this time. ( electrical,wire is buried at the bottom, would preferred a mid slab but it was to complex to install that way). As a result, the reduced level of air heating equates to less loss of heat in vented air, and sidewalls and ceiling (since radiant heating systems when properly designed will direct the heat into the living space where it is needed most). Radiant and convective heating systems produce different thermal comfort environments and generally differ in energy consumption due to their nature of heat delivery or removal. In the United States, it was none other than the distinguished architect Frank Lloyd Wright who first introduced the concept of radiant heating to countless Americans. Absolutely hate it. Bigman | Jan 06, 2006 02:57am | #20. Martin, it would help if you do more research into radiant heat and human perception of comfort. And its only a matter of time before winter returns. To make electric resistance heat competitive with natural gas, you'd have to have a rate of 3 cents a kwh. Of course, Wright was ahead of his time in more ways than one, so it was not until decades after his death that radiant heat finally came into focus. I have no idea what sort of ceiling heat is being discussed, but when I lived in Colorado in the mid-70s, I worked for a contractor during the winter building expensive custom houses. Floor and ceiling heat and love it. In the older form, electric heating elements are sandwiched between a layer of drywall and a layer of plaster. Alas, I've gone beyond the point of answering the Original Poster's question, and I don't wish to derail his thread. Electric Radiant Ceiling Heat 1970S Qmark Radiant Ceiling Panels from homeconceptaero.blogspot.com The system last To my understanding it would be ideal to test and inspect before energisation, but it isn't 100% necessary. I don't understand why you keep painting me as an advocate of using ceiling electric radiant panels as the sole source for heating homes. An Ecowarm radiant ceiling can typically operate in water temperature ranges of 80F-95F, while Ecowarm radiant floors will often operate in the 95f-120F temperature range. Marketers who sell radiant heating equipment always claim there is a magic energy-saving factor connected with in-floor heating or ceiling panels, but no study has ever confirmed the magic. I am unsure how to even begin figuring out what kind of system I have, I just know we love the heat and want to keep it. The inspector can tell you who the manufacturer was - we just went through a home inspection when we purchased our house with radiant ceiling heating. Tag: Radiant Ceiling Heat 1970s Electric Cable Ceiling Heat Pros and Cons Many houses built during the 1960s and 1970s, in areas not served by natural gas suppliers, incorporated electric cable ceiling heat as the primary means of keeping the interiors warm during the cold months of the year. Most parts of the country are paying about $1 a therm for natural gas. I managed to remove the drywall from around the wires, so they are intact, but now I have a loop of wire that I'm not going to be able to re-embed. Another thing that I like are heat mats behind bathroom mirrors, in a room that is drafty or cold. Then came 1907 and a British professor named A.H. Barker came up with the first real radiant heating system, the "radiant panel," which used a large surface like a floor or ceiling to radiate heat into a building's living space. They now claim no responsibility so trying to replace it ourselves with something different. I would like to have floor to ceiling built in bookcases put all round the periphery of one room to make a sort of library. Most radiant heating systems are in the floor, and last time I checked most occupants of a house are near the floor. Thank you Mr. Kilbride for your informed comments. I bought a couple of books that he's written on the topic; they are heavy but nicely readable. This system must be disconnected immediately if it hasn't already. Today, innovative systems allow homeowners to target different temperatures for different parts of the home. 1990; Ling and Deffenbaugh, 1990) because the radiant heat from the heater falls directly (or indirectly through surfaces) on the occupants thus producing more comfortable conditions. Is it smart to still consider anything other than heat pump system ?? Our only concern is that it has radiant ceiling heat. In other words, you can insulate every wall and plug every air leak, but if your heating system consumes a relatively large amount of energy in the effort to reach and maintain a comfortable indoor temperature, youre inevitably going to be stuck with sizable month-to-month utility bills. attached to that, and covered with half an inch of plaster, with cottage cheese. How to Install Radiant Heat Ceilings | This Old House - YouTube 0:00 / 3:19 How to Install Radiant Heat Ceilings | This Old House This Old House 1.94M subscribers 75K views 2 years ago. Some people prefer hot feet -- some people prefer a hot head. Do some research on how the systems work. Prestige boiler for in floor heat and ceiling vented heat. For instance, in some radiant setups, hydronic tubes (or electric coils) are embedded within a slab of sluggish concrete that takes hours to heat up and cool down. So I depart and leave you to your bliss. Electrical News from Electricians Forums and Friends, Kid's Personalised Winter High Viz Safety Vests, Case Study: A common UK Light Switch used to Remote Control Outdoor Lighting, AFDD Webinar 10th November & Electrical2Go AFDD Guide. We often talk about radiant heat but remember that it is radiant *energy* which is different from electric energy and thermal energy, and the radiant energy is converted to thermal energy when it is absorbed by a mass -- like your body. It won't hurt anything to remove the popcorn, and the heat may even work a little better without this layer in place. The heating working great, I just want a digital thermostat put in. Not only would the concrete take too long to heat up, but it would also continue to radiate for several hours after the thermostat had been turned down or off. In the bedrooms we have dark streaks on the ceiling where the tape is. Question for the people smarter than me: I'm repairing a corner of the ceiling with radiant heat installed. The heaters have a very low surface temperature and gently warm the space. In general, these studies proved that radiant heating systems offer the potential of (1) reduced heating unit sizes (due to reduced heat load and peak load), (2) reduced you seem like an experienced person judging from internet info : Just the bathroom affects our electric bill minimally compared to cooking and hot water. The remainder of sheets were 5/8 firecode. Ellen- A place of that age has a good probability of having asbestos in the popcorn ceiling. The previous owner also added gas forced air heat. There may be no such thing as a perfect system, but, hey, its 2015: You deserve heating that operates efficiently to create consistent comfort. First you need to determine what KIND of thermostat you have. Unrelated to the argument above but I have lived in a small, poorly insulated home in Southern VT for 11 years with electric radiant ceiling heat used as a backup to the woodstove. Does anybody know about the panels from this company or the panels with embedded wires in general as it pertains to asbestos risk? Navies on demand Hot Water . It is clearly a waste of time to have a difference of opinion in this forum. Welcome to ElectriciansForums.net - The American Electrical Advice Forum. You must be a magazine subscriber to access this feature. I'm going to look him up and call him to ask his opinion. All of them work o.k., but the dining room ceiling seems to get physically warm to the touch. buttom board lid, radiant cable. Maybe we are getting away from the initial topic, but just to be clear the focus of my comments are: - radiant heating versus forced air heat to produce a given comfort level for human occupants We liked to have our bedroom cold and the rest of house warm. Improvements to chimney flues occupied many scientific minds. It would be great if John writes a blog post to generate a good discussion here. i want a new thermostat so this discussion help me deside maybe my son in law can not be the one to put the thermostat in. I also suggest you get in touch with John Siegenthaler who is a guru in this area and he can walk you through all of the technical considerations. Compared to forced-air heating, radiant systems operate at least 25% more efficiently, according to a study conducted byKansas State Universityin conjunction with theAmerican Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air-Conditioning Engineers. Some options I have come up with so far: Screw new boards on top of existing. Mine is wire embedded in the drywall, NOT between two layers. I read about it, and anticipated that we d be comfortable with lower temp, They are 122 cm (4 ft) wide and 183, 244, 305, or 366 cm (6, 8, 10, or 12 ft) long. Radiant ceiling panels go where other comfort solutions can't. With three mounting options, they can fit any ceiling space, helping to offset heat loss through perimeter windows and entrances. Therefore, the bedrooms upstairs benefit from the heat on the first floor. While that is a long time, the NAHB rates radiant ceiling panels with a 40-year life. heating systems (Hart, 1981; Zmeureanu et al., 1988) which is not favorable since air infiltration rate in a building is one of the significant factors affecting energy use and comfort (DeWerth and Loria, There has been some very useful writing since the question above was asked 8 years ago. They say a heat pump is good for heat in temperature down to 20 Fahrenheit, but I have had them for years, recently replacing old with newer and very high efficiency, and it's still the same temperature range. Only when the boiler and distribution plumbing are in uninsulated unconditioned space does that loss add up to much. 2. The simplest was the fireback, a decorated slab of cast iron placed at the rear of the firebox to retain and radiate heat. Very thin (2-3mm) type of matting laid all around between the ceiling joists. 1970's retro fit rear car window heater built in, thick visible tracks) are fragile and easily damaged. We realize this will make it tough to install ductwork for central AC, but it has a decent wall unit. . Warmth is warmth, right? In winter, this situation is reversed with your warm indoor air moving through the plasterboard and outside of the home. This feature has been temporarily disabled during the beta site preview. From some work I've done on another area, it seems that each panel is powered individually from the rooms thermostat. "Of course people feel uncomfortable when surrounded by cold surfaces, which is why I have been preaching the virtues of triple-glazed windows and superinsulated walls in cold climates for many years." Are you a distributor? They may be good for retrofit. Has a 10mm copper strip down each side of mat, a type of fabric in between and is covered in a film. Does a CU swap require a full initial verification on all circuits before it can be energised? Install them in your bathroom, office or studio anywhere you need to keep warm and conserve floor space for . DIMENSIONS | 24 x 24" and 24 x 48". Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/. The complete source for building, designing, and remodeling green homes. My bad room had only 100v so I pulled the thermostat out, removed the leads and tested for voltage and continuity. I figured out what the Single Pole LR10499 22A-120/v240;18A-277VAC means. The . I could add to the canadian study and confirm in our second fully heated winter, that floor radiant heating does not mean lower thermostat settings at all. Now, they won't turn off. It is darkest where the ceiling and wall meet. 00. These panels appear to be gypsum board and I dont have a hidden spot to take a sampling for an asbestos test. If part of the energy savings was from setback savings, is that necessarily a bad thing? Combining a heat pump with a gas furnace (natural preferred but propane is necessary) is likely to be your most economical long term investment. Engineered Hardwoods - Navigating all the brands. who is good? Kevin, still here and reading all with interest. I snipped the wires in two and maretted the ends. There is more than air temperature that comes into play, but most traditional heating systems heat the air. Here are two super-useful articles (10 to 20 minute read each): Sorry for drifting off on a tangent Just noticed this discussion. Do I need to do anything with the wire if I do clip it, beside insulating the end? ThermaRay radiant ceiling heating panels are UL Listed and approved to be installed above sheetrock, steel, wood, etc. Today, it works as well as any other traditional system, if not better, and operates at least 25 percent more efficiently than forced-air systems, the most ubiquitous type of heating in the United States. Some small, some larger, that when added together tip the scales hugely in favor of radiant heat. I have electric ceiling heat installed in the 1970s. A really good grade of paint. Steve, A feeder line runs from the other side of the thermostat to the single wire heating grid sandwiched between two layers of drywall ceiling, then back to the second hot wire to complete the circuit. The average 65F radiant comfort temperature with 59F day/night setback should reduce building heat load by 25% to 35% over convective systems.". It was determined to be from ceiling heat. Hskidmore07 try calling a home inspector a local realtor can give you a referral.. We built our house in 1969. The article was written by the Research Chairman of the ASHRAE Radiant Heating and Cooling Technical Committee. Kick the 'stat back to the mid-60's - who needs a hot bedroom? Btw Martin, fuels costs are way to high here to consider anything else than fire or electricity, Maybe you didn't intend to do so, but this is what you wrote. Radiant Ceiling Heat Thermostat Replacement 9 Easy Steps Efficiently Heating And Cooling Homes With High Ceilings Rooms Dengarden Radiant Floor Heating When It Does And Doesn T Make Sense Buildinggreen Electric Radiant Floor Warming Doityourself Com Wps Most Power Should Be Red Tonight Wluk Hydronic Ceiling Panels Heating Help The Wall Chances are, we can repair your electric radiant heating system so that it will keep you warm during cooler temperatures. By the way, I heated 2200 s.f. 1990). All answers were no and i wouldn't hold him responsible if anything happened. Morgan : Ceiled heat was the way to go. I'm sure he can direct you to installers. Our house was built in 1977. I beg to differ, Robert. Floors are comfortable due to that heat from the ceilings below. Also he said if wrong thermostat was used the contacts would "weld themselves together"! Its facts and opinions are those of BobVila.com. I am not. every room of the house has radiant heating and yes it does dry out the joints and will crack it over and over as heat will remove moisture. These heaters permanently installed inside a ceiling, are very quiet. The only downfall is that if you want to add something to the ceiling for whatever reason, you need to get qualified expert advice how to not mess it up! A well insulated room that utilizes radiant heating systems can save money over a gas system if used and designed properly. They do do work in Ohio. Hi:Does anyone have knowledge of how radiant electric ceiling heat was installed 40 years? That's why you are happy to use electric resistance heat -- because your electricity is so cheap. Is it laid atop the drywall in some kind of grid? Baseboards have a High Surface Temperature. It should cost less than $100. http://www.radiantec.com/why/technical-explanation.php, Partial quote: This is not a high heating bill for Minneapolis. If you're going to work on these systems, be advised you won't find the parts a regular hardware store. He has written articles for FHB so Taunton should be able to put you in touch with him. in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net, Reply to Ceiling heating1970's? I don't want to just lay it up on top of the patch I put in (attic is above). "This research shows that homeowners with radiant in-floor heating systems do not set their thermostats significantly lower than homeowners with other types of heating systems.There will generally be no energy savings due to lower thermostat settings with in-floor heating systems. Sorry, Steve, but a BTU is a BTU. And as soon as I get through reading all the info here I will be looking for somebody to inspect ours. The house was built in 1954 and we had the original furnace replaced 2 years ago. If I recall it was fed on the onpeak side of E7,and available 24hrs. Give us a call at 562-595-1448 to find out . Not so much. You received a plan on which sheets went where. There are many benefits to choosing a radiant heat ceiling as the heating option for your home. ( i don't see how it would change anythign beyond +-5% ). But how does it affect energy consumption ?? ), I ve personally visited a housenwith ceiling radiant panels, andi didnt like it I am not promoting heating a house with radiant ceiling panels, so don't set up that straw man just to knock it down.